Curse

Bamelin · May 10, 2005, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Apparently I didn't phrase my last post regarding this very important community issue correctly and my origional thread was misinturpreted to be soley about skills and therefore moved to the wrong forum:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=9463

Over 2000 people viewed this thread in less than a day and there were also 100+ responses also in less than a day showing that this is definately a community issue ... although I'll admit I never expected so many people to respond.

I thought perhaps I should post up this issue again in the general community forums as it is obviously something that goes far past a debate over the SoC/skills and spills into an issue that strikes at the very core of the Guildwars community.

Take a look at the fan sites out there and one will find a debate raging over forcing players to PvE in order to enjoy PvP content ... this is an issue that is being hotly talked about on almost every major Guildwars Forum.

My current belief and stance is simply this:

Originally Posted by anduck (in response to Gaille)

I cannot see the challenge, the solution is right there in front of you: let PvP-oriented people unlock through PvP. Do not force them to spend hundreds of hours grinding through the PvE game multiple times and completing it to a far greater extent than most PvErs, which is the current situation. I am not sure that persons who argue in favor of the grind, including yourself, fully comprehend that. In fact, I am certain that they don't.

Basically I have no problem "earning" my right to certain skills and runes. I'd just like to see a way to do so through PvP instead of PvE. Does this seem reasonable?

Master Elyas · May 10, 2005, 05:37 PM // 17:37

yes... of course it seems reasonable!

im a PvE myself, but i also like to PvP and kick my friends around the arena sometimes... i understand what you are saying... theres no reason to make the PvPers to PvE to unlock everything.... they should just be able 2 do it while PvPing!

If you win a certain thing while PvPing, you unlock something... it should be like that...

Kordesh · May 10, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Here is what I don't understand. If you make a new PvP character, you lose all the fame/ranking you've gained with that character in your time PvPing with them. Jumping around between characters that often doesn't seem like something you would want to do, unless I'm missing something and PvP characters have the fame/ranking carried over or something. Don't see a point in PvP characters outside of trying a new spec after you run out of attribute refund points considering you unlock everything with your PvE character anyway which by the time they're done can do PvP anyway.

Bamelin · May 10, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I think fame is tied to an account instead of single characters?

Master Elyas · May 10, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

well, it would be better if you play through PvE first, and get all your items upgraded to godlyness, and then go and PvP... but, what if ppl only want to PvP, and dont care bout that stuff????

Master Elyas · May 10, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamelin

I think fame is tied to an account instead of single characters?

it just might be... but then again, i havent done any PvP since before release, so im not sure...

Kordesh · May 10, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamelin

I think fame is tied to an account instead of single characters?

I'm not sure. It would be nice if it was, and might actually make PvP characters worthwhile, but doesn't seem to make sense. I mean, you could technically have a different name and different setup for every battle. you would think fame would be tied to someones name at least.

Loviatar · May 10, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Elyas

If you win a certain thing while PvPing, you unlock something... it should be like that...

that is so open to abuse that it is beyond stench

either both sides get the prize (whatever it is skill wise) or most will be locked out (put in time GRIND and get your elite)

or if only the winner gets it different guilds will simply agree that we will let you win on M/W/F and we get T/T/S and on sunday we fight for real (again going through the motions GRIND)

Bamelin · May 10, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

I wouldn't even mind if it was tied to Tomb matches ... Maybe one new skill or rune every time you make it past a certain stage in the tombs?

Since Tomb matches involve teams from all over the world it wouldn't be as easy to rig.

Tyveil · May 10, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

The problem with allowing PvP to unlock stuff is that it would be very subject to abuse (guilds start making dual accounts used just to help their members "unlock" everything). If there was a surefire way to prevent abuse (which I doubt their ever could be), then I would be all for it. But unlocking via PvP should be slower than via PvE, to encourage players to have a look at all this great content.

adam.skinner · May 10, 2005, 06:32 PM // 18:32

If you're going to allow unlocking in PvP, it should be under these conditions:
(1) Random arena only
(2) Signet of capture method only
(3) No public speech; only group talk

Beer w/Straw · May 10, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

You play fps games you:

Write scripts

Tweak graphical settings and monitor refresh rate

Customize configuration

buy uber 7 button mouse

And you can log onto a server right away and start fragging on par. But with all that said and done, I didn't buy Guild Wars for an adrenaline twitch game. So really, I don't care. This game in neat when you're adventuring with guys.

You can drink beer and play PvP on par. But not in Quake or such cause your aim gets off to much. This game should be about drinknig beer and adventuring.

Hell, this is the only online game that I didn't run the lowest resolution possible to maximize on frames per second... It's too slow and turn based anyways..

Vangor · May 10, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

But it isn't about drinking beer and adventuring...play WoW, EQ2, SWG, DaoC, anything but this, it is meant for streamlined mmo'esque competition with a more accessible and strategic element over sheer numbers, equipment, and hour long delay uber abilities. I've had battles last long enough in WoW for me to get in a second vanish, which is a five minute recharge ability, others have ten, twenty, an hour, for guild wars I practically groan at ten second delays.

Granted I'm a fan of the PvE elements, I want them both to offer something, and both be usable paths. All of this talk of exploitation and such, these are always rampant when they are not considered, but really, dissuade people with :

Consecutive wins against characters count for less and less, including both team and guild related wins which count for less on scale but ultimately may effect as much or more. Greater reduction for further similarities in kills, meaning 1+1 = 2.2 or so, so a full team being defeated is essentially worth nill, while defeating say the same six characters in six different battles is actually worth more per. This means that you cannot pitch the same battles again and again, and of course it is tied to account, remaking a character won't work, fighting with a different character won't work, but if people get antsy with exploitation with multiple accounts, I mean really, there is only so far to go.

Ranking systems based on pure point basis, direct losses and lack of growth, and essentially further splits between point values means lesser or greater points earned depending on victor. In other words, if you want to farm points off someone, they better have points themselves. However, you incur losses, but if you have say 1,000 points and another person has 0, you might progress up 1 point, defeat em a few times and may get none. Of course on the inverse, they defeat you and recieve say 10 points, while an equal point value win would mean say 4 points. This would be balanced meaning the points you lose do not equal the points they win, otherwise progression may become increasingly difficult for some, but also restricts the possibility of tanking on either side again and again.

As well, further prizes based on higher evolutions through the ladder, so if only you and a few others are at this pinnacle of 10,000, you would be decked in special looking armor with a neat weapon and have a few extra unlocks, which means essentially everyone wants to develop to this point, not waste their day getting you up. And, defeat against a similarly ranked enemy is a heavier loss.

That plays into the pure spirit of the thing. I've come into CS servers where people are mopping up, and shut them down completely to the point that they left. Why? Cause everyone there wasn't such an active player, and while he may have looked cool with a great ratio, when it comes down to the areas where you need to play head to head against real talent, you falter and are shown for little. If someone works their way up on harvesting guild mate alternate accounts, they may get to 5,000, but, never 10,000, or whatever point system envelopes from it.

May 10, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

that is so open to abuse that it is beyond stench

either both sides get the prize (whatever it is skill wise) or most will be locked out (put in time GRIND and get your elite)

or if only the winner gets it different guilds will simply agree that we will let you win on M/W/F and we get T/T/S and on sunday we fight for real (again going through the motions GRIND)

There have been alot of suggestions on how to implement PvP rewards w/o abuse

Also, fame is account based

Beer w/Straw · May 10, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I've played Planetside which was to be a MMOFPS game. I used to go hyper killing everything. But then they nerfed the surge and slowed down the game.

They blamed it on net-code but in truth the game to me was filled with skilless whiny newbies that got owned fast and hard. The game turned into uber crap and it felt slow and turn based to me.

I want to rumble in clan wars n'stuff. But I just don't care about adventuring for items to do it. This game doesn't excite competition in me as much as others. This game is better than Planetside: They are both slow and turn based but at least this has cool eye-candy.

Loviatar · May 10, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

There have been alot of suggestions on how to implement PvP rewards w/o abuse

Also, fame is account based

thanks as i missed those somehow
if no abuse no objections

Bamelin · May 10, 2005, 08:57 PM // 20:57

You have to admit the netcode WAS kinda crappy though in Planetside ...

Bamelin

master · May 10, 2005, 09:09 PM // 21:09

pvp is account base, so rank/fame and guild status is carried over to your other characters. Tombs is random, and only hoh, which requre 7 consecutive wins, ever get anything anyways, so you can't abuse your way to rewards, since there's so many teams. To me, it doesn't seem like you can abuse much, except the fact that the good teams get unfair advantage and get even better. That's a problem right? I dont think it's a bad idea though, having multiple ways of unlocking spells.

Romac · May 10, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

i don't know what their original intention was, but maybe they are trying to encourage people to get more involved with the game and guild wars community by playing the pve side, and exploring the world and story line, because they know that those players give the game longevity, and are the source of future income.

I may be wrong, but my general feeling about people that ONLY pvp will be leaving this game a lot sooner than people that are into the TOTAL game...pve, and pvp. I know if i was just doing either, i'd get tired of the game pretty quickly.

makes sense to me anyway. I love both, i think i understand this from both sides, and that's probably the reason why they are doing it like this.

Since i like both, and i think most people like both, and it gives the people that like both an advantage...i'm all for it.

This is a non-issue if the only people that care will be gone in a month anyway.

goku19123 · May 10, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Acutally, I bought this game 70% for PvP and 30% PvE, seriously. However, this is the last game I am going to buy, and I will be sticking with the expansions for this game til the company stops making them. Arena.net is that awesome. But I too would like to see suggestions or ideas on how to improve the current system. The other thread on SoC has turned south and really is almost flaming at each other in some instances.